Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Who's Online2

DaRuhl
DaRuhl
lilstinkylynx
lilstinkylynx
The Fantasy Basketball Cafe Response Team is coming back for the rest of the season. If you are interested in helping our community grow by interacting with our members, providing quality feedback and getting more involved, direct message "DailyFantasyCafe" for details.

2015/16 Discussion

2456

Comments

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    @Cap said:
    Shouldn't there be something in the rules about this? For instance, when does this cap space automatically come off the books? I assume as soon as the season ends and the rookie draft order is set? What about future picks, there's no commitment since we don't know where those picks will be? Does anyone else see something wrong with forcing commitment for an upcoming draft but not the following draft, etc? What happens when you don't have enough cap space for your draft pick? If you're not committed until the end of the season then technically you can use up all your future cap space before the rookie draft is set and not have enough to make your pick. Also, how can we force someone to use cap space on draft picks not made yet if their intention is to waive those picks anyway? That could easily be solved by not starting the auctions before the rookie draft is complete, not sure why we jumped the gun.

    Comparing this year to future draft picks is foolish and just trying to make up issues for no reason. They obviously do not apply as we are not drafting future drafts currently....

    If you really need that extra 0.5m and don't want to keep your pick then I don't think it would be a big deal to be able to waive it early. I seriously doubt this even comes up as an issue.

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    @Cap said:
    That was my original question. I have two 2nd rounders coming up and plan on waiving them both, so can I do that preemptively or do I have to wait until my turn comes up? It's not entirely fair to start the auctions if I am committed to this cap space while we're still drafting.

    Why not offer up your picks to others for free? They would be gone from your responsibility then.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736

    I'm not trying to create issues for no reason, just anticipate issues in the future. What if someone has three 1st round picks in 2016, that could end up being a lot of cap space next year, but there's a loophole where they could sign guys now and fill up their 2016 cap space now. What happens when the season ends and their upcoming draft picks' cap is booked and it takes them over the cap? Do they forfeit the picks? Again, not trying to create anything, just curious as the rules don't address this.

    Concerning my picks, I don't really want to give anyone assets for free, and technically I can't without getting an asset in return, correct? But if we are allowed to just preemptively waive picks then that is fine, I'll do that.

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    I didn't say that you could, i said I don't see it being a big issue if it comes to that. Try to have some patience. This is not actually an issue for you right now, you are not looking to spend that money right now.

    Also, it is very obvious that if you have no cap space and have to draft a player that would put you over the cap that you need to create room in order to do so, or trade away the pick.

  • silentjimsilentjim Member, Moderator, Commish - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League, League - Battle of the Sports Forums Posts: 519 mod

    I'm going to have to agree with Cap here. I don't believe picks have value until the player is actually chosen. In the rules rookie picks are not listed as cap holds.

    Our one golden rule is you can never go over the cap. So what happens if you have 74M in salary next season and you think you'll do good and end up with a 13-16th round pick worth 1M but end up with the 12th pick which is 1.25M? The minute we hold the lottery and determine the slots, this manager would be in violation of the cap and that doesn't make any sense.

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    No they would have like a month or more to clear space. Something we have made extremely easy for this league. At that point he would likely have multiple players that can be bought out for 25% of their cost, or he can trade a pick for cap space, in that he doesn't have to spend it.

  • DaRuhlDaRuhl Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 445

    I agree that picks are not cap holds until chosen.

    I believe we have technically structured all years of the second rounders as team options. I'm happy to take the view that the cap hold of a team option is 0 until the option is exercised. So, cap can draft his second rounders and then waive them, without a risk of going over the cap - he's basically choosing to waive his first year option.

    -DR

  • silentjimsilentjim Member, Moderator, Commish - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League, League - Battle of the Sports Forums Posts: 519 mod

    @scully19 said:
    No they would have like a month or more to clear space. Something we have made extremely easy for this league. At that point he would likely have multiple players that can be bought out for 25% of their cost, or he can trade a pick for cap space, in that he doesn't have to spend it.

    Literally in the rules @dasein has what is defined as a Cap Hold and rookies aren't in there. This is the same structure as the NBA in real life as well.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736
    edited September 2015

    Scully, I brought up this issue a few days ago and got no response, and you actually don't know how I want to spend my money, so unfortunately patience is not something I can afford since the auctions are now open and on a clock.

  • hichihichi Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 136

    I think that Da Ruhl's suggestion makes a lot of sense and may be the easiest way to handle it.

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    But you are not on the clock for the draft, and we have agreed it is an issue, and that no one wants to screw over you, or themselves, to run these concurrently. So solutions will be found. All I'm saying is pre-waiving might not be it, so have patience for that.

  • silentjimsilentjim Member, Moderator, Commish - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League, League - Battle of the Sports Forums Posts: 519 mod

    @DaRuhl said:
    I agree that picks are not cap holds until chosen.

    I believe we have technically structured all years of the second rounders as team options. I'm happy to take the view that the cap hold of a team option is 0 until the option is exercised. So, cap can draft his second rounders and then waive them, without a risk of going over the cap - he's basically choosing to waive his first year option.

    -DR

    This is how I've always understood it personally.

  • silentjimsilentjim Member, Moderator, Commish - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League, League - Battle of the Sports Forums Posts: 519 mod

    We've also never started the auction without having the rookie draft complete however.

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    I believe that once they are drafted they do count against the cap, caps issue is that if he spends his money now and has less that 1m under the cap, but then chooses a player he might have otherwise dropped he would go over the cap.

    I can think we can all agree it is an unlikely issue that no one is going to hold him to since this is a special circumstance. I don't see that this should be held against anyone, whether it be a pre-waive, or if you make a pick and waive it immediately (if you do not have the cap space to keep), some sort of handling can be come up with, but regardless I think we can all agree very easily that we won't let this hamper people.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736

    I'm fine with whatever you guys decide the rules should be, and sorry for jumping the gun on waiving, but I brought all this up before and was basically ignored, so would appreciate a ruling on this as soon as possible as we're all on the auction clock now (whether it's my turn to draft or not).

  • silentjimsilentjim Member, Moderator, Commish - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League, League - Battle of the Sports Forums Posts: 519 mod

    @Cap Do it however you want. If you want to waive your draft picks now go for it. If you want to wait until its your turn to pick to waive go for it. Once drafted they would count obviously.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736
    edited September 2015

    That's fine, but you guys aren't addressing the main issues at hand. What if someone wants to waive a 1st round pick that doesn't have a team option, are they on the hook for the total cap hit, or the buyout cap hit, or nothing at all until the pick is made? This issue can be avoided if we just make a rule that the FA auctions won't start until the rookie draft is complete.

    And that still doesn't answer the question of what happens if you can't afford your draft pick.

  • DVauthrinDVauthrin Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 795

    Draft picks have no financial value until a selection is made, so you have 12M right now to work with cap. When your picks are made, you will deduct .5M at that moment, but you can immediately waive the players and get the space back.

  • DVauthrinDVauthrin Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 795

    You should never have to waive a 1st round pick prior to making a selection. Someone will take it off your hands, or simply draft an overseas player that you know isn't coming over and they won't count against your cap.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736
    edited September 2015

    DV, appreciate the clarification but I am not talking about my team as a specific case, more about the rules in general. I understand that it's an unlikely scenario, but rules need to be black and white as to avoid any problems in the future, no? If we're saying the draft pick cap hit occurs when the player is drafted, then it's entirely possible that a team goes over the cap, even if it's for the split-second before the drafted player is waived, which is in violation of our golden rule. Preemptively waiving draft picks, whether 1st or 2nd round, solves this but goes against the claim that the cap hit doesn't occur until the player is drafted. It's a muddy situation for sure, which is totally simplified by ensuring the auctions don't start until the draft is complete. In my opinion, if anyone cares, the following rules should be clarified before we run into a problem:

    1. Rule stating the auctions won't start until rookie draft is complete.
    2. Rule determining when a draft pick cap hit occurs.
    3. Time limit applied to rookie draft, and determine consequence if time limit is not met.
    4. Rule determining what happens when you can't afford a draft pick after time limit has expired.

    Again, just suggestions.

  • silentjimsilentjim Member, Moderator, Commish - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League, League - Battle of the Sports Forums Posts: 519 mod

    In my opinion

    1. This should have happened

    2. This is already in the rules; not until rookie is drafted

    3. Definitely need a time limit (if people can't make a rookie pick how can they make an auction bid?)

    4. I don't think this needs to be addressed. Just like any player you can't afford you need to trade, or waive, etc.

  • DVauthrinDVauthrin Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 795

    The real way to solve the issue is just to put a time limit on rookie picks and hold to it, then start auctions.

  • hichihichi Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 136

    @DVauthrin said:
    The real way to solve the issue is just to put a time limit on rookie picks and hold to it, then start auctions.

    This

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736
    edited September 2015

    Right, but it should be clear what happens when you don't meet the time limit. If your time limit passes do you lose the pick or have it pushed back? Consequently, if your time limit passes and you can't afford the pick do you forfeit the pick? Doesn't matter to me either way, just think these things should be in the rules.

  • DaRuhlDaRuhl Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 445

    I think you should be able to draft-then-waive 2nd round picks, even if it would put you temporarily above the cap if you counted the cost. Reason is that these are team options and don't think there is a cap cost until you've picked up the option.

    I don't think you can do the above for 1st rounders.

    Based on the above, I don't know that we need to wait for the whole draft to finish before auctions start, but it would be nice to wait for the first round to complete.

  • DVauthrinDVauthrin Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 795

    @Cap said:
    Right, but it should be clear what happens when you don't meet the time limit. If your time limit passes do you lose the pick or have it pushed back? Consequently, if your time limit passes and you can't afford the pick do you forfeit the pick? Doesn't matter to me either way, just think these things should be in the rules.

    Your pick is pushed back and you can make it at any time. If you neglect to make the pick by the end of the draft, the rules committee takes the highest ranking rookie left according to yahoo for you, and you can cut them afterwards. Something like that.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736
    edited September 2015

    @DaRuhl, I think that creates a bit of a conundrum though since there are other players under contract who have team options that do count against the cap, so why would those team options count but these ones don't. Plus, you could essentially keep the drafted player on your roster right up until the last day before the season starts then drop him, which could create a roster size issue, considering that player isn't 'technically' on your team.

    @DV, I would agree with that, and I do think if you can't afford a pick after time limit expires you forfeit the pick outright.

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    Pick gets pushed back, but not the contract value. If you'er holding a player on your team then obviously he counts against your cap. What DaRuhl means is that you pick and immediately drop a player then he doesn't hit your cap. Playing some sort of game keeping a player is obviously the same thing.

  • TheRobSaysTheRobSays Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 323

    AD getting expensive!!! Seth too !

  • daseindasein Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 956

    Relax Cap, there's no drama here.

    Ideally we would do the draft first, but it's not the end of the world if it doesn't work out that way. We've had draft and free agency overlapping before. Then again we've never had anyone who rides the cap as hard as Cap before...

    Waiving picks seems a bit weird to me, but if it came down to it and you made a pick when you didn't have the cap to do so, the pick would just dissolve I would think.

    The other way would be to have the salary for incoming picks count as a cap hold at the start of free agency. This probably makes more sense but might be something to formalise for the future.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736
    edited September 2015

    Who's being dramatic? Just thought these rules, or should I say non-existent rules, should be clarified for the future. You're welcome. And who's riding the cap? I have 13M free.

  • silentjimsilentjim Member, Moderator, Commish - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League, League - Battle of the Sports Forums Posts: 519 mod

    Let's not get touchy guys. First day. :#

  • daseindasein Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 956

    Yup, mere hours into the process and someone is getting his knickers in a twist. Welcome back to the SCL everyone. :p

  • RocketDWMRocketDWM Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 207

    Its like Thanksgiving dinner

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736

    Yes, welcome back to SCL everyone, where good ideas and legitimate questions are ignored and frowned upon by so called commissioners. Enjoy, but don't make any suggestions, because dasein hates that.

  • hichihichi Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 136

    LOL! B) Makes me giggle. Mostly all of it.

  • daseindasein Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 956
    edited September 2015
  • Fenris_77Fenris_77 Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 215

    It's early in the process for high school levels of drama. :p Next we'll be hawking spitballs through fat straws and stuffing people into lockers.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736

    You guys are bullies.

  • Fenris_77Fenris_77 Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 215

    I wasn't leveling any blame, just commenting on the stinky gym socks and teen angst vibe I was getting from thew thread as a whole. That said I don't see anyone pointedly not engaging with your issues, so I'm not sure what the ruckus is.

    1. Yes, the draft should have had time limits.
    2. That appears not to be the case, but that doesn't mean that this year's hiccup needs to be an issue that requires the wailing and gnashing of teeth. It's pretty standard in salary leagues for the picks not to count until after the player is signed.
    3. Guys will get it sorted before the start of the season for the most part, so it seems like more of a molehill than a mountain.

    Next year we'll run the draft and free agency sequentially like normal and it won't even be an issue.

  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736
    edited September 2015

    The ruckus is the fact that I can't say anything in this league without dasein backhanding an insult or two, which I'm sure stems from jealousy, but still shows a lack of professionalism and comraderie. I understand he gets upset when I try to improve the league but he should probably just learn to participate in a conversation we're all having without snarky remarks than continuously trying to egg me on for no reason.

  • daseindasein Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 956
  • CapCap Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 736
  • SoTexSoTex Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 167

    What the hell is going on???

  • SoTexSoTex Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 167

    Sweet Jesus! I've got 34 email notifications in my inbox, about drama and sweaty gym socks and evolution...

  • DaRuhlDaRuhl Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 445

    Fudge! I wanted to bid on Redick, forgot we are 12 hours not 24!! Argh!!!

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    Time to wait on nykos to decide if he wants to match.

  • scully19scully19 Member, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 236

    Can you guys who close out the auctions just make a post at the bottom saying who won. This new post would allow me to look at the closed threads and tell what i have added yet or not to the spreadsheet.

  • daseindasein Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 956

    @scully19 said:
    Can you guys who close out the auctions just make a post at the bottom saying who won. This new post would allow me to look at the closed threads and tell what i have added yet or not to the spreadsheet.

    Sure thing

  • DVauthrinDVauthrin Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 795

    that's fine scully. my bad on not doing it on the first two.

Sign In or Register to comment.