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2016 Waives, Buyouts, etc

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Comments

  • DaRuhlDaRuhl Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 563

    Again, the NBA analogy is difficult to be precise with. But see Coon's CBA FAQ:

    The 48 hour waiver period continues into and through the July Moratorium (see question number 104). Teams are allowed to waive players and claim waived players during the Moratorium. Salaries adjust at the start of the Moratorium, and the salary cap adjusts at the end of the Moratorium, so during the Moratorium waiver claims use the new season’s salary amounts and the previous season’s cap.

    I believe that means that, from the point of view of waivers, they are processed based on the current season's salary information and rules until 7/1. Again, I don't think the actual NBA is that relevant here. But I can't find any reference in Coon's FAQ that shows the end of the season has any relevance to these matters.

    We both agree that you are allowed to buyout a player on the last day of the season and that you are allowed to buy them out on the same day they play, even if you've played them in your lineup. That would have seemed to be the relevant issues to me.

    However, I believe you are saying that the offseason begins for the player after their team's last game of the season starts (but only if you've played them in that game).

    So I am clear for the future, am I allowed to buyout a player on the last day of the season if their team's last game was on a prior day and I played them in it? Under the argument I understand you to be making, the answer to this would be no. But perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

    Thanks!

    -DR

  • nykosnykos Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 461

    Celebrate your championship & be happy of the contributions of your season adds & pay your guys.

  • DVauthrinDVauthrin Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 1,084
    edited April 6

    @DaRuhl said:
    Again, the NBA analogy is difficult to be precise with. But see Coon's CBA FAQ:

    The 48 hour waiver period continues into and through the July Moratorium (see question number 104). Teams are allowed to waive players and claim waived players during the Moratorium. Salaries adjust at the start of the Moratorium, and the salary cap adjusts at the end of the Moratorium, so during the Moratorium waiver claims use the new season’s salary amounts and the previous season’s cap.

    I believe that means that, from the point of view of waivers, they are processed based on the current season's salary information and rules until 7/1. Again, I don't think the actual NBA is that relevant here. But I can't find any reference in Coon's FAQ that shows the end of the season has any relevance to these matters.

    We both agree that you are allowed to buyout a player on the last day of the season and that you are allowed to buy them out on the same day they play, even if you've played them in your lineup. That would have seemed to be the relevant issues to me.

    However, I believe you are saying that the offseason begins for the player after their team's last game of the season starts (but only if you've played them in that game).

    So I am clear for the future, am I allowed to buyout a player on the last day of the season if their team's last game was on a prior day and I played them in it? Under the argument I understand you to be making, the answer to this would be no. But perhaps I am misunderstanding you?

    Thanks!

    -DR

    You are making this way too complicated. The issue is only how you pay the buyout. Nothing else.

    Nobody can play a guy the last day for add drops, drop him after the player's game has started, then say I want the buyout to fall under in-season rules. Do you seriously not see the problem with that?

    If you had dropped Gortat and MCW on the last day for add drops, and either done so before their games or not used them that day, and wanted to pay their buyout entirely this season, then you would have been fine. Just like I already said the Felder and Johnson moves were legal and they finished their season Saturday. But nobody can play players the last day of the season, cut them afterwards and get to pay their buyout on this season's cap. The cap hit goes towards next season.

    And yes we need to move the deadline to the day before the playoffs start, or at a minimum to the day before the playoffs end to avoid this issue ever again. But in all the years of the league, you are the only guy consistently waiving guys on the last day of the year.

    Once again, I'll leave you with this analogy: it would be like the Warriors playing Javale McGee in game 7 vs the Cavs this year to try and win a title, then that night(as he was playing), waive him to not have to pay his offseason buyout in free agency. It would never happen because once agents and players got wind of it, no players would ever want to play there ever again. It's a BS move.

  • DaRuhlDaRuhl Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 563

    Look, I do see where you are coming from.

    To be clear, you'd be fine if I had not played them and then dropped them the last day. So, in reality, your basic issue is that I get to both play them and get the benefits of dropping them on the same day ("double dipping").

    And yes, I agree that's pretty ridiculous and would never happen in the NBA. But, it happens in this league all the time (as my examples showed). In fact, in at least one of the examples I looked at, a manager posted a player drop and had them actively play in a game AFTER (albeit the same day) they dropped the player(!!!!!) I'll let you imagine how the NBA players' union would react to that! And, any time a manager drops a player, there's a benefit to them (extra salary cap or roster room), and they are getting that benefit immediately upon posting the drop (same as me), even though they played the guy that day.

    In short, if you asked me if what I did should be legal under the rules, I'd say no (and I've advocated for changing them). And I don't think you should be allowed to play a guy and waive him the same day.

    My point is that it is legal under our current rules and was inline with the clarifications on timing of buyouts in the fantasy season that were posted. Moreover, numerous people in the season took advantage of the exact same "loophole" (getting a game from a player and recognizing drop benefits on the same day), just with less significant, lower profile benefits (that nobody complained about).

    I'd prefer the league be governed by the rules that have been written, the clarifications posted on the boards, and reference to prior precedent (even if they are not exact parallels). To me, the fact that this is being disallowed with the supporting rationale stemming more from what "should" be and analogies to the NBA is a concern - regardless of whether it is "a BS move" (which I actually agree it is). But, how the league is governed is not my call.

    Thanks!

    -DR

    PS Waiving guys at the end of season is a powerful tactic. It's one of the reasons why I've done pretty well (5th, 1st, 3rd, 1st) in this league. I'm always surprised that nobody else uses it, frankly, and have attributed it to end-of-season burnout...

  • DVauthrinDVauthrin Member, League - Bonanza Keeper League, Commish - Salary Cap League Posts: 1,084

    @DaRuhl said:
    Look, I do see where you are coming from.

    To be clear, you'd be fine if I had not played them and then dropped them the last day. So, in reality, your basic issue is that I get to both play them and get the benefits of dropping them on the same day ("double dipping").

    And yes, I agree that's pretty ridiculous and would never happen in the NBA. But, it happens in this league all the time (as my examples showed). In fact, in at least one of the examples I looked at, a manager posted a player drop and had them actively play in a game AFTER (albeit the same day) they dropped the player(!!!!!) I'll let you imagine how the NBA players' union would react to that! And, any time a manager drops a player, there's a benefit to them (extra salary cap or roster room), and they are getting that benefit immediately upon posting the drop (same as me), even though they played the guy that day.

    In short, if you asked me if what I did should be legal under the rules, I'd say no (and I've advocated for changing them). And I don't think you should be allowed to play a guy and waive him the same day.

    My point is that it is legal under our current rules and was inline with the clarifications on timing of buyouts in the fantasy season that were posted. Moreover, numerous people in the season took advantage of the exact same "loophole" (getting a game from a player and recognizing drop benefits on the same day), just with less significant, lower profile benefits (that nobody complained about).

    I'd prefer the league be governed by the rules that have been written, the clarifications posted on the boards, and reference to prior precedent (even if they are not exact parallels). To me, the fact that this is being disallowed with the supporting rationale stemming more from what "should" be and analogies to the NBA is a concern - regardless of whether it is "a BS move" (which I actually agree it is). But, how the league is governed is not my call.

    Thanks!

    -DR

    PS Waiving guys at the end of season is a powerful tactic. It's one of the reasons why I've done pretty well (5th, 1st, 3rd, 1st) in this league. I'm always surprised that nobody else uses it, frankly, and have attributed it to end-of-season burnout...

    After this post, I'm done discussing the issue. I've explained my position quite well multiple times and the rules of the league are being fairly followed and applied. Nobody is trying to alter current rules to penalize you.

    The facts are you played the players on the day designated as the deadline for in-season buyouts and then dropped them after their games began, making them available to everyone to add only in the offseason.

    You can disagree, but by virtue of playing them in your lineup that day, you chose to keep the players and their existing contracts on your team past the deadline for in-season buyouts. If you had benched them, or cut them before their games on Sunday, then you were following in-season buyout protocol.

    Therefore, the buyout procedure for both players follows offseason rules, which means you pay their 25% buyouts and those cap holds are applied towards your cap next season, not this one.

    You can still waive Gortat and MCW retroactive to the last day of the season if you want(Sunday), but the cap holds will still be applied to the 2017-2018 season. So you will take hits of 1.31M( Gortat) and .24(MCW) in your 2017-2018 cap holds of waived players if you choose to do so.

    What you can't do is eat their buyouts using your remaining 2016-2017 cap space, which is what you hoped to do when you waived them.

  • DaRuhlDaRuhl Member, League - Heroes Keeper League, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 563

    I feel I've explained my position very clearly multiple times as well.

    I believe I fully understand your point of view.

    I do not see anything in the rules, prior guidance, or prior practice that says, implies, or suggests that
    playing a player on a given day in any way effects the timing with which their drop is effective. Nor have I seen you make reference to anything in the rules, prior guidance, or prior practice which you feel supports this.

    However, you have made compelling arguments that this would not work in the NBA and that you feel it sets a bad precedent. I do recognize those points although I differ with your opinion as to whether they should be the guiding factors.

    I agree further discussion is not useful at this point. And I understand it is not my decision to make.

    I withdraw all four waivers (under protest).

    I will vigilantly monitor going forward if managers receive any benefit (e.g. the ability to get under the cap to make a bid) by making a drop on the same day they've played a player and will highlight such behavior if and when it occurs.

    Regardless of our disagreement, I very much appreciate the effort you and others make in running this league.

    Best,

    DR

  • KiireKiire Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 182

    Can someone shortly explain again what the red color salaries mean? I can drop those players in off season with a discount?

  • jb510jb510 Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 182
    edited September 15

    I think you are talking about the offseason 25% partially-guaranteed contract buyout section of the rules. Here are the rules. I created a 2017 post for waives/buyouts.

    SCL Rules

  • KiireKiire Member, League - Salary Cap League Posts: 182
This discussion has been closed.